Red Wave Radio

by **sohl,william** » Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:13:15

>|> Instead, in the case of my wife's Toyota Camry, the manufacturer simply
>|> put a disclaimer in the owner's manual that you must not install a
>|> transmitter without Toyota's prior permission. I wonder how often they
>|> give such permission ;-)

>Geez....! Looks to me like CC&R's are invading the automotive industry! ;-)
>Does the manual say anything about antennas?.....or towers? :-)

Assuming that every new Toyota includes such a disclaimer statement.
Wouldn't it be fun to go to a Toyota dealer, negotiate a price, and then
say..."Oh, is it true that I your winer's manuals all say.....require
permission from Toyota to ensure the warranty...before installing any
transmitter..." Now the salesdroid would have to check it out,
but even if they said no, I'd ask to see a manual and then say, no
I can't risk buying a Toyota necause even if you approve the transmitter
I own now, I don't want to be forced to get your approval just to install
a different transmitter in 6 months from now.

If Toyota salesman hear some of that, the pressure can become pretty
intense on the factory.

Anyoine know if there are any other such manufacturer's stipulations
against transmitters in their vehicle product line. This might be a
good "consumer report" item that ARRL should write-up for a future QST
issue.

Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
Morristown, NJ email via UUCP bcr!cc!whs70

by **Gary Coffm** » Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:07:32

>> A really unpleasant situation would be if air bags popped or anti-lock
>> brakes locked up when you keyed up a rig. Has anyone reported either of
>> these phenomena?

> I was driving a rented Ford Taurus the other day. I had my dual-band
> HT hooked to a 1/4 wave antenna which was plastered against the
> windshield with one of those suction cup BNC mounts. I noticed that
> everytime I transmitted (2 Watts), the Airbag light on the dashboard
> came on. Nothing bad happened, but it got me thinking....

> Bob KB0CY

It's a violation of federal regulations, OSHA? BATF?, one of those, to
transmit within 500 feet of a wired explosive charge. Since airbags are
deployed by a wired explosive charge, lead azide, it would seem that you
can't legally transmit on an amateur radio in an airbag equipped car.

Gary KE4ZV

by **sohl,william** » Wed, 23 Dec 1992 02:29:17

>>> A really unpleasant situation would be if air bags popped or anti-lock
>>> brakes locked up when you keyed up a rig. Has anyone reported either of
>>> these phenomena?

>> I was driving a rented Ford Taurus the other day. I had my dual-band
>> HT hooked to a 1/4 wave antenna which was plastered against the
>> windshield with one of those suction cup BNC mounts. I noticed that
>> everytime I transmitted (2 Watts), the Airbag light on the dashboard
>> came on. Nothing bad happened, but it got me thinking....

>> Bob KB0CY

>It's a violation of federal regulations, OSHA? BATF?, one of those, to
>transmit within 500 feet of a wired explosive charge. Since airbags are
>deployed by a wired explosive charge, lead azide, it would seem that you
>can't legally transmit on an amateur radio in an airbag equipped car.
>Gary KE4ZV

If that is totally true, then any and all mobile operation must now
be verboten because you never know if the other vehicle within 500
feet of you is equiped with an air bag. Likewise, my property is
only 200 feet deep. Even if I had my antenna at the very rear of
my yard I'd be withing much less than 500 feet of the road and
could not with any assurance know that there isn't an air-bag equipped
vehicle within 500 feet of my antenna (heck, my neighbor's car in the
driveway may have an airbag).

I think there must be some clarification on this as the motor
vehicle manufacturers and/or the sellers of radio
equipment are obviously in exact opposite possitions as to
the viability, use, etc. of their respective products.

By the way, if amateur's can't transmit with 500 feet of an air-bag
equipped vehicle, neither should anyone else (eg. police, fire,
rescue, commercial mobile & base). Then too, what about all those
broadcast antennas that are easily with 500 feet or less of some
road?

I'll hazard an assumption here that there is some type of exception
with regard to the application of the 500 foot transmit prohibition
and the type of "charge" used to deploy air-bags. If there isn't, and a
strict reading of the rules is applicable to this situation then there's
a lot more at stack here than just ham transmissions.

Anyone with any more details out there?

Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
Morristown, NJ email via UUCP bcr!cc!whs70

by **Doug Faunt N6TQS 415-688-82** » Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:49:11

And even if you were willing to take the risk of buying the Toyota,
you could use this a a bargaining point, or do this at the dealers
where you're not going to buy the vehicle, make your point, and still
get a Toyota.

by **Mike (KB2K** » Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:09:40

|> Anyone know if there are any other such manufacturer's stipulations
|> against transmitters in their vehicle product line. This might be a
|> good "consumer report" item that ARRL should write-up for a future QST
|> issue.

Bill, I recently went in to a GEO dealer, picked out the car of my dreams, negotiated the price, then finally inquired about stipultions in the warranty regarding transmitting equipment. The salesperson said that there was nothing specific about it in the warranty, but if I install transmitting equipment which causes a problem with the car, the warranty coverage will end there.
So did our negotiations :-)

mla
--
.............................................................................

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

.............................................................................

by **PL..** » Wed, 23 Dec 1992 09:39:55

On 21 Dec 92 17:29:17 GMT you said:

Quote:>By the way, if amateur's can't transmit with 500 feet of an air-bag
>equipped vehicle, neither should anyone else (eg. police, fire,
>rescue, commercial mobile & base). Then too, what about all those
>broadcast antennas that are easily with 500 feet or less of some
>road?

Hmmm...granted, Cellular phones are, what, 3w, max? Could this be the
end of yuppie-dom? ("Hundreds die in cellphone-airbag mishaps")

by **sohl,william** » Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:28:32

>|> Anyone know if there are any other such manufacturer's stipulations
>|> against transmitters in their vehicle product line. This might be a
>|> good "consumer report" item that ARRL should write-up for a future QST
>|> issue.

>Bill, I recently went in to a GEO dealer, picked out the car of my dreams, negotiated the price, then finally inquired about stipultions in the warranty regarding transmitting equipment. The salesperson said that there was nothing specific about it in the warranty, but if I install transmitting equipment which causes a problem with the car, the warranty coverage will end there.
>So did our negotiations :-)

>.............................................................................

To a certain extent I see less problem with the GEO dealer's statement than
the Toyota approach. It would be difficult at best for a GEO dealership
to "prove" the transmitter was the cause of the problem. In any case,
I'd have likely done what you did...walk out and tell'em to stuff their
sale, I'll buy from a manufacturer who will stand behind their product
in terms of the vehicle being resistant to mobile radio RF fields.

I have a friend in the industry, I'm going to ask him about the subject
and see if he knows of any minimum standards that a vehicle must/should
be capable of withstanding relative to exposure to RF, regardless of the
source (eg. Ham, Police, Cellular, etc.) Anything I learn I'll post
as a follow-up.

Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
Morristown, NJ email via UUCP bcr!cc!whs70

by **Gary Coffm** » Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:48:45

>>It's a violation of federal regulations, OSHA? BATF?, one of those, to
>>transmit within 500 feet of a wired explosive charge. Since airbags are
>>deployed by a wired explosive charge, lead azide, it would seem that you
>>can't legally transmit on an amateur radio in an airbag equipped car.
>>Gary KE4ZV
[deleted]
>I think there must be some clarification on this as the motor
>vehicle manufacturers and/or the sellers of radio
>equipment are obviously in exact opposite possitions as to
>the viability, use, etc. of their respective products.

It wouldn't be the first time that regulations from one department
were in direct contradiction to those of another. As an example,
the company where I work had a custom made wheelchair lift constructed
for a stairwell to come into compliance with the Federal handicap
access regulations. When they went to get a permit to install it,
they found that it was forbidden by the fire code to install such
a device in a stairwell that could be used as an emergency exit. So
one regulation said that they *must* install the device, and another
regulation *forbade* it's installation. Meanwhile they were stuck
with a $30,000 lift and the prospect of fines. Figuring that the
Federal government was bigger than the city building inspection
department, they installed the lift anyway and are fighting the
city in court.

Gary KE4ZV

by **Jeffrey D. Ang** » Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:37:01

> If Toyota salesman hear some of that, the pressure can become pretty
> intense on the factory.

Toyota (like General Motors) sells enough cars that even if EVERY amateur
quit buying thier new cars, they wouldn't notice. (Or care) There is enough
of a market out there without the amateur community. The only manufactures
that HAMs have any clout with are those that depend on them for a major part
of thier business. Sad but true, we are NOT the center of the universe.

US Mail: PO Box 4425 Carson, CA 90749-4425 1 (310) 324-6080

by **Mike (KB2K** » Thu, 24 Dec 1992 08:49:18

|>

|>
|> > If Toyota salesman hear some of that, the pressure can become pretty
|> > intense on the factory.
|>
|> Toyota (like General Motors) sells enough cars that even if EVERY amateur
|> quit buying thier new cars, they wouldn't notice. (Or care) There is enough
|> of a market out there without the amateur community. The only manufactures
|> that HAMs have any clout with are those that depend on them for a major part
|> of thier business. Sad but true, we are NOT the center of the universe.

While I agree with the fact that hams may not be the center of the universe (although not all of the data is in on that one yet ;-), the amateur community is not the only entity which uses transmitters in vehicles. I think that emergency/government/etc services was mentioned before by others. Also, what if we added all the folks who use CB's in their cars to the list? By casual observation, I see LOTS of vehicles during the daily commute with transmitters of one type or another installed. The caveats p

ut forth by the auto makers do not specifically single out hams with respect to transmitter/transciever installation. I think that the community of 'mobile-radio-users-in-general' is enough that it ought to get SOMEBODY's attention (we can only hope).

mla

--
............................................................................

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

............................................................................

by **Jack C. Lockha** » Thu, 24 Dec 1992 13:47:34

>>It's a violation of federal regulations, OSHA? BATF?, one of those, to
>>transmit within 500 feet of a wired explosive charge. Since airbags are
>>deployed by a wired explosive charge, lead azide, it would seem that you
>>can't legally transmit on an amateur radio in an airbag equipped car.
>>Gary KE4ZV

>Anyone with any more details out there?

I hope this post isn't mixing apples and oranges. The subject of
explosive devices and radios caught my attention. I posted this on
December 7, 1992. Perhaps it should be posted again. Forgive me in
advance if my post isn't appropriate.

From news.service.uci.edu!mothra.nts.uci.edu!lockhart Mon Dec 7 14:22:34 PST 1992
Article: 2605 of rec.radio.amateur.policy
Xref: news.service.uci.edu rec.radio.amateur.policy:2605 rec.radio.amateur.misc:29457
Path: news.service.uci.edu!mothra.nts.uci.edu!lockhart

Subject: RF radiation hazards in the use of explosives or detonators
Nntp-Posting-Host: mothra.nts.uci.edu

Summary: Summary of Rules, Research, Books and Papers
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.misc
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Keywords: RF hazards, detonators, bombs
Lines: 109

Date: 7 Dec 92 22:18:09 GMT
Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.policy

>Can anyone quote or provide a particular rule section (from any radio
>service) regarding operating RF equipment near explosive or detonation
>devices? Or is there a study that has a chart which says that with x
>frequency band and y power, z is a safe distance for "most" cases.

>My radio peers do work around bombs and other explosive devices. We
>use low power VHF radios, 800 MHz radios and cellular telephones to
>communicate with.

>Some of the University of California police officers are concerned
>about using their portable radios, hand held radios and cellular
>telephones when they respond to bomb threat calls...

>Please send e-mail or post if you wish. I will provide a summary and
>post to the net if there is any response.

>Thanks in advance.

Thanks to all who responded. Research on the above subject also
produced the following references:

Institute of Petroleum (Great Britain)

Recommended practices for radio silence when conducting wireline
services involving the use of explosives / Institute of Petroleum,
Offshore Operations, United Kingdom Continental Shelf. Chichester ;
New York : Published on behalf of the Institute of Petroleum, London,
by J. Wiley, c1984.
UCSB Library TN279 .I68 1984 Sci-Engrg

INSTITUTE OF MAKERS OF EXPLOSIVES

Publication #20. "Safety Guide for the prevention of RF radiation
hazards in the use of commercial detonators." $4 (202) 429-9280

FACTORY MUTUAL RESEARCH (INSURANCE COMPANY)

Factory Mutual Research per the National Electrical Code Class 1, Div.
1, or 2 hazardous locations in the presence of Group C, D, E, F, & G
atmospheres; non-incendive for Class 1, Div. 2, hazardous locations in
the presence of Groups A, B, C and D atmospheres.

NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION

Hazardous locations are defined in the National Electrical Code.
Useful standards NFPA 437A and NFPA 437M for the classifications of
hazardous areas may be ordered from the National Fire Protection
Association, Batterymarch Park, MA 02269.

CAL OSHA

Barclays California Code of Regulations Title 8, section 5305;
"Blasting with Batteries, Blasting Devices and Blasting Machines."

BUREAU OF *** TABACCO & FIRE ARMS

Guidelines for operations of RF devices in close proximity to bombs or
other detonators.

UNDERWRITERS LABORATORY

Guidelines for operations of RF devices in close proximity to bombs or
other detonators.

BUREAU OF MINE & SAFETY HEALTH ADMINISTRATION

Guidelines for operations of RF devices in close proximity to bombs or
other detonators.

FBI Report and Summary (still looking)

Guidelines for operations of RF devices in close proximity to bombs or
other detonators.

Reference: County of Orange (California) Sheriffs Office Bomb Squad.

~jack_

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by **Gordon Coug** » Thu, 24 Dec 1992 14:08:01

>I have a friend in the industry, I'm going to ask him about the subject
>and see if he knows of any minimum standards that a vehicle must/should
>be capable of withstanding relative to exposure to RF, regardless of the
>source (eg. Ham, Police, Cellular, etc.) Anything I learn I'll post
>as a follow-up.

I have discussed the problems with one of the principals in setting the
ASAE, ASE, and hopefully the ISO standards for networking of computers
used on offroad and farm machinery about the problems of interference
btween the computers and radios. He was of the opinion that any computer
that caused radio interference or any computer network that couldn't
exist in a 100 watt envornment was broken.

Gordon
Gordon Couger
AB5Dg Agriculture Engineering Oklahoma State University

by **Ed Wrig** » Fri, 25 Dec 1992 03:44:01

Quote:>>I have read messages from time about auto computers frying, ignitions

>i suspect the FCC doesn't see an automobile as a "radio" yet. maybe it should
>be the department of transportation that looks at various specs available
>(such as for aircraft) and be the responsible body.

Certificate
This here attached Toyopet Rice Grinder is Part 15 Compliant.
If it disturbs your airbag or TV just call the FCC.
Do not remove this sticker, or any of the stuffing under
penalty of law.

--
-- I think I've got the hang of it now .... :w :q :wq :wq! ^d X exit ^X^C ~.
^[x X Q :quitbye CtrlAltDel ~~q :~q logout save/quit :!QUIT ^[zz ^[ZZ

by **John De Armo** » Fri, 25 Dec 1992 05:25:58

about these exploding airbags. Just imagine what fun some ham who lived
near an interstate and who had a full boat EME rig capable of a
couple MW ERP could have by aiming toward a traffic lane.

Yet another highway participatory sport - Trolling for Airbags.

Hmm, better get to work on a set of rules. What bonus points should I
award to launching a yard ape out the passenger side window? Is that
worth more or less than launching Rover? Should there be a Yup-mobile
bonus for scoring a BMW or Benz or jap clone? Questions, questions...

John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC |Interested in high performance mobility?
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers?
Marietta, Ga | Send ur snail-mail address to

Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta? Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

by **Brian Cuth** » Sat, 26 Dec 1992 01:49:39

This whole issue seems unbelievable to me. Does anyone think that people
ask Toyota before installing a cellular phone ?

I'm not a lawyer, but I would bet that unless they come right out and say,
"You can't put transmitters [read cellular phones] in this car" they
would violate some "suitablilty for the intended purpose" statute or some
such. Virtually everyone who buys a car today is at least thinking about
putting a cell phone in it.

Furthermore, I agree with someone else's comments regarding the person
sitting next to you at the traffic light. What's supposed to happen
when he keys his 200 watt UHF transmitter ?

brian

KA3BRZ

--
Brian Cuthie
Systemix Software, Inc.

Red Wave Radio

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?

Exploding Air Bags? Locking Anti-Lock Brakes?